VTV wrote:
v-radio.org/ is where you can find my stuff.

So why is it then that Peter Joseph's podcasts the only ones with stickies? And why is it that he's "just about" the only one promoted on TVP's website? And why is it that Zeitgeist is promoted but RBOSE is not?

I just listened to an audio recording on YouTube with Gilbert talking to a member of RBOSE about some kind of name calling incident among some members of RBOSE. Apparently the way TVP handles conflicts is via censorship of an entire organization? Is that what you're advocating?

Understand I'm new. So I don't know at all what's going on between your 2 groups. I just now sent a message to RBOSE asking them their side of the story. How about giving me and everyone else here the other side? Or did I just walk into China without realizing it?

manilaenglish2 wrote:
VTV wrote:
v-radio.org/ is where you can find my stuff.

So why is it then that Peter Joseph's podcasts the only ones with stickies? And why is it that he's "just about" the only one promoted on TVP's website? And why is it that Zeitgeist is promoted but RBOSE is not?

I just listened to an audio recording on YouTube with Gilbert talking to a member of RBOSE about some kind of name calling incident among some members of RBOSE. Apparently the way TVP handles conflicts is via censorship of an entire organization? Is that what you're advocating?

Understand I'm new. So I don't know at all what's going on between your 2 groups. I just now sent a message to RBOSE asking them their side of the story. How about giving me and everyone else here the other side? Or did I just walk into China without realizing it?

The RBOSE thing has been talked about many times. I will try to keep this to key points.

1. There was a dispute for a while over whether or not we should ban people for any reason from our forums or our other communication mediums. Some people used the forums, some IRC, and some Ventrilo (Later TS3). Some people have the misguided idea that we should be finding solutions other then banning people. Eventually we will, but TVP does not advocate just shutting off all rules of conduct. It is about changing the environment we live in to affect positive changes. We cannot do this through a chat room or other medium. Then people suggested technical solutions to trolling. Which basically amounted to writing a computer program to censor negative words. One of them even suggested voice analysis to prevent people from speaking in TS3 if they were obviously upset. (This was someone from RBOSE, I might add.) This is totally contradictory to TVP principles because we don't want machines monitoring people.

2. Then there was the "Open source vs. Non-open source" debate. Some people said TVP/ZM should be completely open source. So they advocated the use of an inferior piece of software called "Mumble" for our voice chat. Then someone got the idea that because it is open source there can be no banning. This lead to people who were getting banned for personal attacks going there to use those mediums. The debate got really silly, as people continued to advocate allowing certain destructive personalities to come back and terrorize anyone they saw fit. If you would like some examples of the behavior I will be happy to show them to you over email. But suffice it to say this is beyond just disagreeing. This is constant use of profanity, threats, etc. And not the least bit constructive. Eventually we suggested a global banning policy so that trolls could not just attack someone on one medium, get banned from that medium and just go use another one to continue their assault. Some of the people who would later be founders of RBOSE objected to this. (Largely because some of them were trolls as well.)

The "censorship" argument was brought up over and over again to try and justify what amounted to little more then cyberbullying. People continued to cry free speech even as it became obvious that the people engaging in this behavior were doing so to intimidate other people into silence.

3. This eventually lead to RBOSE. They formed this splinter group. Though they claim they are trying to be more effective then TZM, their IRC chat logs are full of people spending most of their time continuing to troll and attack people from TZM. Including researching into our personal lives, and making youtube videos to attack us. Eventually we got so sick of it that we stated we wanted nothing to do with RBOSE anymore. Whether or not there is anyone involved in that project that has constructive aims or not, RBOSE is being used as a platform for trolls to continue their assault on the people who banned them for their behavior. So for that reason, we don't mention them or talk about them. It really is just a haven for people who have nothing better to do with their time but spew hate at people on the internet from the safety of their keyboards.

There is more to this story, but I have explained it so many times I don't really care to type it all over again. If you want to talk to me voice wise sometime about it we can arrange a phone call.

Here are some blogs and radio shows where I touched on the subject:

www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/joomla/inde...tid=60&id=262132

And this is about one of the more notorious trolls from RBOSE whom the founders of it kept insisting we let back on.

www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/joomla/inde...tid=60&id=247356

In that link, you will find a link to a voice chat recording dealing with him. You will have to listen to the whole thing to really get it. But the guy doing all the screaming and cussing is someone they insisted that we keep around even when he acted like that all the time.

VTV,

Thank you so much for taking the time to explain it to me and everyone else who might have been interested. That was very detailed and I'm satisfied. I'm certain, if I'm not the first new person confused by this, that you must be getting really tired of explaining this.

I'm wondering why you haven't created an organizational team to discuss issues like this on a continuous basis. Maybe you have too many projects already? I would be happy to create a team to start talking about self-organizational strategy. Just a group of interested people at least discussing it at minimum to start. Then people could at least see that we're brainstorming it.

Anyway, right now I'm just happy to finally understand what's been going on.

VTV wrote:
Here are some blogs and radio shows where I touched on the subject: ... the guy doing all the screaming and cussing is someone they insisted that we keep around even when he acted like that all the time.

Thank you for being so open. I promise to read through and listen to all of this tomorrow as it's approaching 4:00 am here now. My wife is going to get upset with me if I'm up much longer.

I have to agree if someone is being abusive, trolling, etc., then absolutely ban them. My only concern is that, I understand there aren't million of active members yet, we are at least thinking about ways we can filter out poisonous people collectively without spying on them (as you mentioned) and without an individual handing out authority. I understand if the group is small or just so incredibly new, that this really might not be possible yet.

But if we can at least just get an on going discussion about organizational structure (maybe as a team or project) where we talk about various structures used by other organization, what has been tried in the past, already existing technology, pros & cons, etc.) then people could go into that group and see all the existing arguments all in one place and feel comfortable that there are at least people working on it.

It's nothing unique to TVP/ZM. It happens on the internet everywhere. There is a subculture of people who are not physically capable of being bullies so they do it on the internet. We have basically fixed the problem now. But the lengths they went to harass us were pretty silly. If you looked at our list of suspended users, almost all of them are sock puppet accounts from these people coming back hundreds of times to cause further problems. All the while saying banning them was not justified.

I see way too much Peter Joseph being promoted here. Isn't there anyone else doing podcasts or radio addresses?

Is anyone else interested in doing them as well? We need more points of view than from just 1 person.

...So why is it then that Peter Joseph's podcasts the only ones with stickies? And why is it that he's "just about" the only one promoted on TVP's website? And why is it that Zeitgeist is promoted but RBOSE is not?

I just listened to an audio recording on YouTube with Gilbert talking to a member of RBOSE about some kind of name calling incident among some members of RBOSE. Apparently the way TVP handles conflicts is via censorship of an entire organization? Is that what you're advocating?


I have to say to everyone that I am continually amazed at the perpetual judgment that some of you put forward on this forum.
Let me walk you through this - Before myself, I know of no one besides Jacque and Roxanne that talked on the subject of a RBE. After Addendum came out and the Movement started to get a couple thousand members, I spent 12 hrs a day researching, creating materials, writing the PDF, creating 4 2 hr+ lectures, writing articles for newspapers, traveling at a deficit to give talks for free, doing interviews and then having a weekly radio address where i did nothing but be tortured by 100s of the same questions, over and over again, patiently working to resolve them. I have spent between $15,000-$20,000 on website administration/programming/bandwidth since it began and I now operate on a monthly deficit.

Listen- I don't want to be the forefront of anything. I was recognized the other day in a restaurant and it made me shudder. I am doing my best to push myself into the background and get others out there to speak and present the movement. So - please - have some tact, appreciation and respect. Also, there is no such thing as "my point of view" here- I am simply restating the data that has been collected.

Apparently the way TVP handles conflicts is via censorship of an entire organization? Is that what you're advocating?

If you think the RBOSE has anything to do with what TZM/TVP is actually doing/advocating, you are way off. [LOCKED]