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Kaimetsu Find more posts by Kaimetsu

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posted on: 05-20-2002 @ 11:00 PM | Report this post to a moderator
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quote:
Originally posted by yufrontme
This statement infers that EVERYONE who submits anything to Graal knows that it becomes their property. Hence your arrogance.


What the HELL are you talking about? How is it arrogant for me to say that people know this policy? Would it be arrogant for me to say that everybody knows they need food to survive?

Granted, the "everybody" was an exaggeration, but I think I'm entitled to that.

quote:
How can the enforce this? They have made NO PAYMENT to the players, therefore it remains their's. If unixmad paied each player 1$ for their work then he would own it, but money has to exchange hands.


Once more I don't think you know what you're talking about, but since I'm no expert in law, I won't attempt a counter-argument.

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posted on: 05-21-2002 @ 10:29 PM | Report this post to a moderator
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quote:
Originally posted by Kaimetsu


I don't think someone should necessarily have to pay for something that started free. But if the owners need the money, then what choice is there? Do you expect them to work for nothing?




I've heard this before, and I know its late but that arguement pisses me off. I think most of us in the playerbase did not want them to go on and create these new Graal 200Xs that they were blowing all their time on. We were very content to stick to Classic and the other playerworlds, and when those got boring there were always new ones being created by dedicated players. I think it would have been very feasable if Unixmad and Stefan were to stop pushing these new ideas on us, and got real, full-time jobs, and they could use small amounts of the money they were making there (which there would probably be more of, anyway), hold a donation box, and gain some extra revenue from semi-hefty ads on the main site and in PMs, and use that to pay for the monthly costs of running a server. As for development, it could stay in the capable hands of dedicated players.

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Kaimetsu Find more posts by Kaimetsu

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posted on: 05-21-2002 @ 11:23 PM | Report this post to a moderator
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quote:
Originally posted by bobo


I think most of us in the playerbase did not want them to go on and create these new Graal 200Xs that they were blowing all their time on. We were very content to stick to Classic and the other playerworlds, and when those got boring there were always new ones being created by dedicated players.



Can you substantiate these claims?

quote:
I think it would have been very feasable if Unixmad and Stefan were to stop pushing these new ideas on us, and got real, full-time jobs, and they could use small amounts of the money they were making there (which there would probably be more of, anyway), hold a donation box, and gain some extra revenue from semi-hefty ads on the main site and in PMs, and use that to pay for the monthly costs of running a server. As for development, it could stay in the capable hands of dedicated players.


Capable, hah. And if they did go get these jobs, do you think they'd have any reason to work on Graal anymore? Besides, Stefan does it because - I think - he enjoys working on the game. He's not gonna stop doing that just because, in some twisted way, you think it'd help improve Graal.

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yufrontme Find more posts by yufrontme

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posted on: 05-22-2002 @ 12:20 AM | Report this post to a moderator
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quote:
Originally posted by Kaimetsu


What the HELL are you talking about? How is it arrogant for me to say that people know this policy?

Because you make the assumption that everyone does know it, when in fact they don't. You were very confedent on your statement.
quote:
Originally posted by Kaimetsu
[B]
Would it be arrogant for me to say that everybody knows they need food to survive?

Past what age or under what condition?
quote:
Originally posted by Kaimetsu
[B]
Granted, the "everybody" was an exaggeration, but I think I'm entitled to that.

No, not granted. How far can we take exaggerations then becomes the question. Can I say, France is gay. Then that would imply that the government, people living in France etc etc... is gay. Where do we draw the lines on exaggerations? Enlighten me.


quote:
Originally posted by Kaimetsu
[B]
Once more I don't think you know what you're talking about, but since I'm no expert in law, I won't attempt a counter-argument.

I will have the details for you later, I must go

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Kaimetsu Find more posts by Kaimetsu

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posted on: 05-22-2002 @ 05:03 AM | Report this post to a moderator
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quote:
Originally posted by yufrontme
Because you make the assumption that everyone does know it, when in fact they don't. You were very confedent on your statement.


So? That's just what my experience has shown. It doesn't amount to arrogance.

quote:
No, not granted. How far can we take exaggerations then becomes the question. Can I say, France is gay. Then that would imply that the government, people living in France etc etc... is gay. Where do we draw the lines on exaggerations? Enlighten me.


Yes, it was granted. Because I was granting the point. I thought you were supposed to be the supreme guardian of the English language or something? :

And I would say that a good 90% of Graal workers know about the condition. Personally, I think that warrants the "everybody". If not, I apologise for misleading you. It's not really important anyway.

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posted on: 05-22-2002 @ 04:44 PM | Report this post to a moderator
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Matriark you can stop using such stupid arguments. It's sad to see people using lies as arguments.

The company needed to pay a lot to keep the servers running for 4 years and to develope the game. Unixmad must pay so that people can have fun playing Graal. With these p2p things it will hopefully change a little bit but the only other choice would be to shut down Graal.

Saying that the oldbies always wanted it stay like in v1.3 is really stupid. All players said they are sick of the hackers and cheaters making the game hard to play, so the decision was to forgot about it and let it like it was or making a good quality game where you need to pay a small charge for being able to play. I have not seen many Graal players saying something against that.

Yes content is our property once uploaded, but when people didn't want their stuff on the server anymore we have always removed it. That property rule was made for not allowing situations where people made important pieces of a server and then say it has been stolen or claim copyright for it.

Paying people for making content might sound interesting but we don't make money with their content. We offer a gaming service 'playerworlds' where players make levels etc. to play together with other players, and professional servers where we make content like gfx and levels, but players still particpate by organizing roleplaying and giving the game a soul.

Matriark, you should work on your own game and not claiming other peoples work as your own work.


bobo Find more posts by bobo

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posted on: 05-22-2002 @ 08:55 PM | Report this post to a moderator
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quote:
Originally posted by Kaimetsu

Capable, hah. And if they did go get these jobs, do you think they'd have any reason to work on Graal anymore?



Did you listen to a thing I said? That's the whole point! They wouldn't have to work on Graal because we could do it ourselves and because they have other, and most likely more profitable, sources of income. And I don't underestimate Stefan that much that I think he would discontinue a game which he created, which hundreds of people enjoyed daily, simply because he had no desire to work on it anymore. He did not start it up to make a profit, and he would not have to rely on it to make a profit.


quote:
Besides, Stefan does it because - I think - he enjoys working on the game. He's not gonna stop doing that just because, in some twisted way, you think it'd help improve Graal.


Again, you misinterpreted what I said. I do not think Stefan should be banned from Graal, and I do not think Graal really suffered from his involvement.

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bobo Find more posts by bobo

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posted on: 05-22-2002 @ 09:32 PM | Report this post to a moderator
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quote:
Originally posted by Stefan
The company needed to pay a lot to keep the servers running for 4 years and to develope the game. Unixmad must pay so that people can have fun playing Graal. With these p2p things it will hopefully change a little bit but the only other choice would be to shut down Graal.


I don't know how much I agree, or in some cases believe, that. I don't know what it cost to run the servers, but it does not cost you a whole lot to upload player- and volunteer staff-created levels. As for the 200Xs, I noticed the number of people on Classic barely wavered, and stayed around 200 or more people, while the numbers of people on the pay-servers was about 3, with the only exception being Graal 2001, which had about a dozen.


quote:
Saying that the oldbies always wanted it stay like in v1.3 is really stupid. All players said they are sick of the hackers and cheaters making the game hard to play, so the decision was to forgot about it and let it like it was or making a good quality game where you need to pay a small charge for being able to play. I have not seen many Graal players saying something against that.


I wasn't around for the glory days of 1.3, but I did notice that people LOVED the levels on Rival, and stayed with it faithfully until it ended (I heard rumors Unixmad DoS attacked it after Cim took it over...), and people's respect for Rival kept the amount of hacking down to one or two condemned loners, who didn't cause too much trouble anyway, except for the fool that attacked Mafukie's computer. I realise that the regular Classic playerbase wasn't there, but I think very few of them even realise that trainers like pie's exist, and far less of them have the capacity to cheat the hard way.
And making people pay for Graal may keep a couple lamers out, but once the bulk of the playerbase finds some trainers, I doubt they will be afraid to use it, especially if the amount you pay a month is as small as you claim (besides, if they're smart enough they can just sign up again under another email address, just like it used to be). Not to mention, there are far better ways to keep out hackers, like actually looking for and prosecuting them. I noticed that you did start taking measures in prosecuting them better with better jailing techniques and such, but I believe this causes more problems (besides the fact that it seemed to only jail me for my sword and shield power when godmode is so much worse, and I'd be surprised if there arent already trainers and hackers that can evade getting jailed). I don't know how long you have to stay in jail (which you should tell prisoners up front), but I noticed that there wasn't a way for me to get rid of the items I cheated for and return to society. Another problem is that I used my trainers to get newbies better weapons. I did not do it as sabotage, but I realise it would be extremely easy for some lamer to trick a newbie into taking a weapon from him, and then when the newbie walks to the next screen the poor guy would find himself in jail. This is a serious problem, and the policy that you seem to have now does not prevent it.


quote:
Paying people for making content might sound interesting but we don't make money with their content


Do you think we're that stupid? OF COURSE YOU MAKE MONEY WITH OUR CONTENT! Without all these levels that the playerbase made for Graal, your game simply would have ANY content. Thats like if I made a popular TV series and NBC said "Well, we're not really making money with that show." It would simply be impossible for them to use my show and not make money with it.

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Matriark Find more posts by Matriark

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posted on: 05-23-2002 @ 05:12 AM | Report this post to a moderator
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quote:
Originally posted by Stefan
Matriark you can stop using such stupid arguments. It's sad to see people using lies as arguments.



I lie not, sir, i simply debate facts and opinions.

quote:

The company needed to pay a lot to keep the servers running for 4 years and to develope the game. Unixmad must pay so that people can have fun playing Graal. With these p2p things it will hopefully change a little bit but the only other choice would be to shut down Graal.



Stefan, there is yet another choice you fail to see. I know graal is a lot of work especially by you, but when i do get my server box eventually, i will have a job to finance it.

quote:

Saying that the oldbies always wanted it stay like in v1.3 is really stupid. All players said they are sick of the hackers and cheaters making the game hard to play, so the decision was to forgot about it and let it like it was or making a good quality game where you need to pay a small charge for being able to play. I have not seen many Graal players saying something against that.



If the game were not a challenge to play, then who would play? We play to defeat the challenges. And if you call those cheaters "hackers", then i tell you sir, that you know not what a hacker is.

quote:

Yes content is our property once uploaded, but when people didn't want their stuff on the server anymore we have always removed it. That property rule was made for not allowing situations where people made important pieces of a server and then say it has been stolen or claim copyright for it.



Like what happened with Pachuka? I heard a little about it...


quote:

Paying people for making content might sound interesting but we don't make money with their content. We offer a gaming service 'playerworlds' where players make levels etc. to play together with other players, and professional servers where we make content like gfx and levels, but players still particpate by organizing roleplaying and giving the game a soul.

Matriark, you should work on your own game and not claiming other peoples work as your own work.



I will point out that you, sir, dileberately stole graphics from "The Legend of Zelda, A Link to the Past" in making Graal.

If you deny it, i'll post the Zelda Online source for all to see.

If you'd bother reading my logs with Unixmad, you'll see that he has used this same argument, which is completely false. If you'd bother to read my newspro in the project section, you'd see my current status.

On my forum i have said that have been developing a new game. this is 100% true. You can ask anyone that knows me well and they will say the same.

I have dedicated the project to the late mother of my ex-girlfriend, and i will not be home most of the day because i am attending the funeral. (I know it's not nessicarily related to the topic, but oh well, it's on my mind.)

I have known you to be a reasonable man in the past, stefan, but I will tell you, sir, that your partner(unixmad) is completely unreasonable. Read my logs on my site:

www.graalsource.com/unixmad-5-17-02.log.html
www.graalsource.com/unixmad_vs_afriend.jpg
www.graalsource.com/unixmad-again.log.html

and sir, if you doubt me, i invite you to read my forums at http://graalsource.com

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Last edited by Matriark on 05-23-2002 at 06:05 AM


yufrontme Find more posts by yufrontme

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posted on: 05-23-2002 @ 05:39 AM | Report this post to a moderator
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quote:
Originally posted by Stefan

Matriark, you should work on your own game and not claiming other peoples work as your own work.

I believe that you deleted both my posts on the G2K1 forums. You were going to shut down N-Pulse because of the information provided and you partiacally disabled part of moon god's forum account.

I have a bone to pick with you and I want to do it formally, meeting place?

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Kaimetsu Find more posts by Kaimetsu

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posted on: 05-23-2002 @ 08:17 AM | Report this post to a moderator
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quote:
Originally posted by bobo


Did you listen to a thing I said? That's the whole point! They wouldn't have to work on Graal because we could do it ourselves and because they have other, and most likely more profitable, sources of income. And I don't underestimate Stefan that much that I think he would discontinue a game which he created, which hundreds of people enjoyed daily, simply because he had no desire to work on it anymore. He did not start it up to make a profit, and he would not have to rely on it to make a profit.



If he's not running it and working on it then I'm sure it isn't fun to him anymore, so why continue it? And who would continue to host something that would inevitably degenerate into a cesspool of cheating idiots etc? In effect they would simply be hosting it for no reason, and you can't expect them to do that.

quote:
Again, you misinterpreted what I said. I do not think Stefan should be banned from Graal, and I do not think Graal really suffered from his involvement.


Oh, so you just want him to work on stuff that you'd like (when he gets time free from his other work)? Even though he'd prefer to work on other stuff? And you're proposing this as a serious solution?

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posted on: 05-23-2002 @ 09:41 AM | Report this post to a moderator
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I don't know if Viper & co are just simply mad, but saying lies and at the same time saying they are not lying is kind of mad.

You can ask Pachuka, he said we can use the levels he made, but unixmad decided to take it out to not have problems in the future (or some LAT made that).

I will not comment your other lies, because everyone with some brain can see the stupidity, sorry,
and I will request actions by the forum owner


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posted on: 05-23-2002 @ 03:38 PM | Report this post to a moderator
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quote:
Originally posted by Stefan
I don't know if Viper & co are just simply mad, but saying lies and at the same time saying they are not lying is kind of mad.

You can ask Pachuka, he said we can use the levels he made, but unixmad decided to take it out to not have problems in the future (or some LAT made that).

I will not comment your other lies, because everyone with some brain can see the stupidity, sorry,
and I will request actions by the forum owner



That answers one question, but what about the others? Will you debate with us, sir, or will you back away like a coward? I can't speak for the others, but I can speak for myself: I do not speak lies, I speak truth and opinions, that's the purpose of a debate.

If you've seen the unixmad logs, they are REAL logs(look at the screenshot my friend took), not some made up propaganda. They were logged using GAIM (http://gaim.sourceforge.net) and I have him aliased as "unixmad" on my ICQ list. If you'd like i can take a screenshot of the "Edit Buddies" window.

Now, sir, will you answer me, or will you continue to back away?

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Last edited by Matriark on 05-23-2002 at 03:48 PM


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posted on: 05-23-2002 @ 05:22 PM | Report this post to a moderator
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www.stinkybear.cjb.net/spos/stuff

So much for lies....

If that site, with all of its Graal nostalgia, does not illustrate the evolution Graal and its graphics underwent directly from Zelda, then no game could ever undergo such a process in any form nor fashion! You've not yet said anything of this as yet, instead labeling everyone liars and madmen. Why? What is there to gain from this? Dude, it's like you act cool and start bringing some common sense and understanding into your game as opposed to acting like some sorta ruthless tyrant whose only goal is to frustrate people's attempts to enjoy the game, and you'll be successful. What, do you think we hate you? Heh, we don't know WHAT to think anymore. We expected this stuff from Unixmad, yeah; but from YOU!?!?!??!

I guess it really doesn't matter from my standpoint. I'm almost done with my own technology and it's lightyears beyond yours, so I guess I'm here merely for the sake of arguement and sanity!

So why are you here, then?

Last edited by LordGalbalan on 05-23-2002 at 06:33 PM


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posted on: 05-23-2002 @ 06:12 PM | Report this post to a moderator
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Yeah, you guys gotta keep the debate clean and not get out
of control. If you can't bring up any facts don't post. It pisses me
off when I try to do something nice and then idiots come to
destroy it. This isn't an anti-graal board but civial discussion is
welcome.

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