TZM is destined to fail, here's how not to (please read Peter)

[Jossos]

This is a lot of text (1000+ words) so skip down to "Solutions" if you don't want to read it all.

Before you go on about my negative energy or whatever, I want everyone to know I care about this movement, and once considered myself a member. I still treasure the ideals, but it's obvious that the message is not getting out, and the RBE is not gaining any ground. I wanted to express my thoughts, and see what people thought.

It really struck me that tzm was in decline when Kony 2012 hit. Kony 2012 in it's month of fame made 10x more of an impact than tzm has done in its 5 years of existence. This was the moment when I really gave up, because it was obvious what the problems were. From "reading out to the public" and mixing in with 911 conspiracy theories (it's in 2 of the films), to new-age mumbo jumbo and speeches, it's obvious that tzm is NOT being guided by science or evidence.

Why the hell is this group reaching out to the general public? Moreover, why the constant media hypes to only appeal to the already converted? You aren't winning over new people (despite whatever anecdotes may come up in your next 8-man meeting). The venues for the events are getting smaller and smaller. 299 seats this year for the main event? And not to mention all the other events with 10 times more seats than people. One "event" was just some German dude handing out dvd's and getting into arguments, and this made the global map. It really is desperation.

It's blatantly obvious this is going nowhere. For the efforts Peter Joseph puts into his "Culture in Decline" series, the returns are very poor. A few ten thousand views is not going to inspire anything. I know the production of all the media is an attempt to hit a key note that will spark the whole thing to life, but it's just not happening, and evidently with the style of the media it's never going to happen if you keep doing the same thing over and over again (Insanity as a certain someone defined it).

THE TROLLS have given up on tzm! They find it so dead that they are bored with it! The blogs that used to fuel hate have been shut down, and the owners have gone to do something else with their time. Is there any other slap in the face that will "wake you people up?"

Imagine for a moment a team of people planning to make a video game. A few guys have the programming skills, a couple have very good art and animation skills, and then there's Reginald, the "idea's guy". Reginald thinks of all the awesome ideas, and the other guys do all the work. He says "Make this happen" then goes to play DOTA all day while the other guys do all the work. The team is hard at work, and Reginald comes in saying "I think that there should be 10 classes, each with 40 skills, and there can be fire skills, ice skills, lightning skills, and to be different love and hate skills, and they can have fire and cold resistance too. And then the skills can be combined with each other using special runes you put in your armor, and then you can make a spell split or bounce, or multiply as it hits enemies. Ok you guys do that im going to play DOTA to be inspired bye". Be honest, would those guys really want to listen to Reginald? TZM and TVP are Reginald in this instance. You really are playing the role of "Idea's guy".

I didn't come here bearing only harsh critiques. Again, I want to reiterate that I care about this movement. I do have some more "things you can do" business.

SOLUTIONS

1. Abandon Routines
Zday and the Media Festivals are just bad ideas. I don't mean to put anyone down, especially the passionate organisers, but the turnouts are awful in most cases, and it really doesn't impact anything. (Definition of insanity)

2. Be real
Have the courage to admit things are going sour. TVP, when asked how things are going, always say "very well" and there's this awkward silence where the asker awaits all the triumphs to be elaborated on. Not much to say in the way of progress. You really have to bite the bullet, and admit how shltty the movement is doing. Once you admit this, you can fix it.

3. Cut out all the bullshit and bullshitters
While I recognise what a "figure" Douglass Malette seems to be, he's obviously not intelligent, nor honest. He has this 2 year old business plan that's nothing but plants on a wheel at this very moment. He flaunts his "experience with nasa" like that matters. Also, people who dig deeper would know that he worked as a contractor for a firm that once did some work for nasa. That's IT! He didn't do anything else for the space shuttle program. You are overselling this guy. I don't mean to pick on him specifically, but it seems the movement seems to be desperately grabbing onto anyone who can do public speaking. In regards to everything else, you need to know that the 911 conspiracy stuff is just bullshit, instead of saying "we don't affiliate with that" just say its bullshit, because it is.

4. Stop trying to convert the public, and bring your ideas into science
Converting the public doesn't prove anything, even if tzm was getting lots of people. The public are mostly scientifically illiterate. This is where TVP(which is supposed to be science based) and TZM fail. They try to convert weak minded folks from the public, rather than have scientists who would oppose the idea to really critique it. Forget the public. They are not smart. If this idea is ever to make any ground, it would be with the scientific community. Do you really think converting "the general public" will earn you any kind of respect? With all the stupid nonsensical organisations out there with lots of followers, this is an awful initial approach. And finally

5. Debate it
Do you really want attention? Do you really want to highlight the problems and create new talking points? Debates with adamant believers on either side draws crowds like nothing else. The Atheism movement has made SO much ground from open debates, where the ideas are really tested, and the best arguments are really exhausted, and a public who enjoys this kind of discourse can be encouraged to think either way if the arguments are solid. Peter Joseph, if you are reading this, your public talking is really top notch. You could really compile some solid arguments and bring many believers of the free market to their knees. If there is any way to have this movement gain momentum, it is through this means. It would likely also be cheaper to produce than your CID series, and its effect would be hugely wide reaching. Free marketeers would flood to the scene, and you have an audience of people who are not aware of the RBE.

If you don't take these points seriously, this movement is destined to dissapear. It's happening, and you deny it at your own peril. Please Peter, no more 1-sided videos. Find an opponent and crush his backward reasoning. A simple debate with Stephan Molexnue (however u spell it) would be a good starting point. A LIVE debate, 1-1.5 hours, where the two of you could converse with each other.

If there's another way to bring this vision to life, I haven't heard of it. Doing the same thing over and over will not work.

Other stuff:

While everything above is what I want to say, I actually want to throw some critiques in the face of the RBE itself, and why others might not take it seriously:

No model has actually been developed. until the "Design Institue" really does get SOMETHING there's not much going for the RBE.

Also some plain english Algorithms for the "Resource Management" program would be good. Algorithms can be abstract, just describe how exactly you measure wants, needs, resource depletion etc.

Do some of the work. Again don't be the "Idea's guy" like Reginald. There are so many books that could have been written in the time and with the expense it took to do these movies and whatever. I don't mean "envision a future" or "image the possibilites" kind of books, I mean books that detail the nitty gritty detail of algorithms for the systems, clear descriptions of required resources per city, or per 10000 people. Human behavious mechanics - How to make people not want in excess what they need, and what to do if they do want excess, or lay out clear proof that that kind of thing wouldn't be a problem. I mean you really need to know the human being super well, not just to support your stance on human nature, but to support the idea that you have any idea how to manipulate it.

Not even in Fresco's work are these things provided. just "Trust me, I have secret blueprints for my toys".

[Bartek_Bialy]

It really struck me that tzm was in decline

How you reached this conclusion? How do you measure it?

THE TROLLS have given up on tzm! ... Is there any other slap in the face that will "wake you people up?"

Not being insulted is an insult?

Zday and the Media Festivals are just bad ideas. I don't mean to put anyone down

But that's what you do by using such phrases.

but the turnouts are awful in most cases, and it really doesn't impact anything.

Could you give us evidence for that?

he's obviously not intelligent, nor honest

So you "treasure the ideals" but then actually start insulting people?

I don't mean to pick on him specifically

But that's exactly what you do.

just say its bullshit, because it is.

Something is bullshit "just because". How is that scientific?

Converting the public doesn't prove anything, even if tzm was getting lots of people. The public are mostly scientifically illiterate.

Define "public". Is that everyone including you and me? Or everyone outside academic positions? Could you back up illiteracy claim?

Find an opponent and crush his backward reasoning

I don't like this confrontational approach because I prefer to propose certain ideas rather than enforce them. Also I don't assume that other's reasoning is "backwards".

In conclusion: By volume of judgements I assume you're angry because TZM is not as known as you would like it to be.

[throwawayjesus]

That's a great post, but it's not going to happen. All the (proto-)scientists I've met on TZM.com when I was around left the ship years ago.

All you have left is people who bitch when you call 9/11 truth bullshit (which it is) or call out TVP for being unable to execute pretty much anything.

Also, love the Reginald metaphor. Godspeed.

[Frank Lee Seaux]

In my estimation, taking an honest approach, it would appear the OP has some valid talking points. Some conversation, and subsequent action, it seems, is in order. It appears, though, to be a call to direct action, rather than education. While I agree that some actions would be in order if we are to expect to ever gain any momentum toward a more sustainable and more egalitarian world, I also believe that education and awareness is of equal value.

One can ineffectually swing a two meter sick at a ball three meters away all day long and accomplish nothing more than getting physically exhausted, or one can move toward the ball successively and gain a great deal more traction.

Unlike the second poster, I did not find any part of the post particularly offensive... though the remarks about Doug's "obvious" intellectual level were left unsupported by evidence, and thus amounted to a bare assertion.

And, I certainly agree that there is a lot of pseudo-scientific mumbo jumbo present within the movement vis a vis literature and materials produced, and or presented by its supposed supporters. While I will not presume to degrade the philosophical, or spiritual beliefs of anyone who claims to support the general direction of this movement, given that it is based on the notion of the application of the scientific method for social concern toward sustainability, in a post scarcity environment, it does seem a bit disingenuous to forward pseudo-scientific notions as supportive of that direction.

Never mind the apologetics of the 9/11 truther/conspiracy theories which are so commonly associated with this movement, thanks in large part to the first film which happens to carry the same name as the movement.

It won't matter to many that the 9/11 stuff is shown as indicative of a symptom... The often narrow minded world view of many who are so focused, is an oddly diffused sort of way by media hype, will see only the conspiracy theory and react to that, rather than to any possible symptom to which it may point.

For varying reasons several media outlets for this movement have essentially vanished from the web... My show went on hiatus because of material needs for equipment with which to produce it. Thunder and Danettes show, as well as the media channel lost its server/service provider. VTV's show had financial problems if I understood correctly. While these shows had their own little spin, they did a lot to advance the medium of exchange of information, relative and relevant to the movement. Before any of these shows went off the air, the original global forum was shut down for reasons we will not go into here.

All of these things add up to a dismal effect on the movement, which we should act to counter, if we hope to remain active and relevant.

Those of us who have remained loyal to the cause need to attack these issues with a renewed vigor, and begin to address them if this movement is to have an over all effect, and if we are to ever see a sustainable future. I can say that the over all message has not vanished from the scene. there are plenty who have taken up the cause on their own... who are producing content relevant to our own talking points, and who are getting the message out there in an effective manner.

We should not allow them to be the only ones.

[Jossos]

How you reached this conclusion? How do you measure it?

I explain in the next few words if you cared to read.

Not being insulted is an insult?

Absolutely. This goes back to your first question, even those who hate the movement with all their heart have found something more interesting to do, since tzm's progress is so terrible.

But that's what you do by using such phrases.

I'm being honest here, stop pretending these events are "successes" when they are not.

Could you give us evidence for that?

Kinda hard when the view is rarely on the audience (obvious reasons), but just search "zday" in youtube, and find me 2 crowded auditoriums from different locations from 2013 and Ill concede this point.

So you "treasure the ideals" but then actually start insulting people?

Yes. Inviting any idiot who can do public speaking onto stage is just a bad idea, and shows desperation.

But that's exactly what you do.

No I use him as an example, and he only merits 3 lines of text.

Something is bullshit "just because". How is that scientific?

Do you want me to prove a negative? that 911 was NOT a conspiracy theory? You have to prove it is if you're for the affirmative. that's how it works.

Define "public". Is that everyone including you and me? Or everyone outside academic positions? Could you back up illiteracy claim?

You know exactly what I'm talking about, you just want to seem intelligent, while somehow giving off the opposite kind of vibe from your responses.

I don't like this confrontational approach because I prefer to propose certain ideas rather than enforce them. Also I don't assume that other's reasoning is "backwards".

People like you in this movement are the reason for it's failure. As I said, you ignore the problems at your own peril. The confrontation and argument stuff really draws crowds. you want people to listen, this is how you do it. The current method of "being someones friend then easing them into the RBE" is not only sly, but obviously ineffective. "I don't like this confrontational approach because I prefer to propose certain ideas" Well good for you. You approach is worse and doesn't work, but I'm glad you prefer that method. Just understand its a fcking awful method. Debates will draw crowds, and it will bring forth the best arguments from either side. If you care about the truth of the matter, this is how you exhaust the best reasoning from either side.

In conclusion: By volume of judgements I assume you're angry because TZM is not as known as you would like it to be.

I'm not angry, but I said very clearly that that is the reason I was writing this. I think it's time for you to go to school now.

[4ndy]

OK, first of all Jossos, a reason why you've slightly hit a brick wall in this conversation so far has to do with some of the language that you used in your original post. When you label something or someone with terms such as 'good, 'bad' or 'stupid', which are given many different meanings even within single contexts, without elaborating what you mean by those, that is essentially giving us no more information but vaguely how you feel about something, and there's nothing we can do with that. This isn't just your problem, most people in English-speaking cultures have this issue, and I have elaborated on it along with related issues and ways around them at length here.

I do recognise that you did give us your reasoning in some places, and in others gave enough context to intuit roughly what you mean (though us knowing exactly what you mean from that is impossible) about public scientific ignorance, but please try not to jump straight to your evaluations without giving us whatever information brought you to them. For example, telling us that Doug is "obviously not intelligent" is about as useful as me telling you that "my neighbour is a jerk". What do you know now about them that you didn't know before? Now, if I can point out a specific observable behaviour, such as "my neighbour beats up his girlfriend and plays loud music til 3am", that actually gives you some concrete information.
In Doug's case, I'm guessing that you mean he seemed to make a fool of himself on stage in LA. I didn't get to see any of that event as ustream's embedded flash player wasn't working for me, while many more missed parts of it due to connection problems, so you'll have to elaborate on what you mean. The last time I recall hearing Doug saying something I'd call stupid was when he was giving a lecture at Oslo and referred to aquaponics as a "closed-loop system", which it is not, since micronutrients leave the system every time crops are harvested and must be replenished from outside, otherwise it requires a perfectly efficient local sewage system for us to be able to call it anything near 'closed-loop'. Apart from that slip-up that you could put down to ignorance or dishonesty (but you wouldn't know unless you asked), the points that I have seen or heard Douglas raise have been mostly correct, lucid and useful, such as his analogies between the need for sustainable economics on a small spacefaring mission and on this spaceship Earth.
As for saying he's not honest, seemingly based on him emphasising the experience that he had in NASA's shuttle program whenever his resume is brought up, I guess that he feels proud of his involvement, even it was a small contribution within a huge team, and I couldn't care much less how he emphasises it. He still has more industrial experience than I do. Those who you think 'oversold' him were probably the event hosts of Z-Day Los Angeles 2013, and it's up to them to keep their event details accurate at the end of the day, not the people on this forum.

Where you suggest we 'Abandon Routines', I agree, for I worry that if so much emphasis continues to be placed upon annual events then they will just fade into yet another 'Earth Day'-like gimmick. However, I can report that some progress was made this year at the London event, where a productive conversation has begun with organisations that we share common ground with. I would like to see future events scheduled upon a topical rather than temporal basis, but our ability to do that depends upon having funding to secure venues. This year's Z-Day London event had little over 200 capacity and completely sold out, while a few dozen people put their names down on a waiting list that ended up not being used, as the hosts could not afford to book a larger theatre in advance. One week before that event there was a debate between members of the London city-chapter, with Federico Pistono as their guest, and the Socialist Party of Great Britain. While I wasn't able to attend that earlier event, I have heard very good things from it and I eagerly await the day's footage going online.

About 'being real', though you may still hear some fairytale about abundant resources from supporters of TVP, many of us here are well aware of the threats posed to human industry by peak oil and other over-exploited non-renewable or slow-renewing resources. For a look at how TZM is doing, I was skimming over some google trends data a couple of weeks ago, and it seems that search volume has been waning in areas of high activity such as the USA and UK for many months, while in areas with very few events but plenty of economic turmoil, such as Greece, search volume has been rocketing, putting them near the top of the list of regional interest, though their population is smaller.
I hypothesise that we are reaching a sort of 'saturation' of people who we can reach online in English-speaking countries, and so our focus should now be offline, while other countries may go through similar stages as they come under economic pressure and have TZM's media available, translated into local languages.

I thoroughly agree that we need to reach out to the scientific community, and we need your help with this, whether it means contacting people at your local university or preparing topical research for the Global Redesign Institute.

[Neil]

I just have one question for you, Jossos: please mention at least one thing you have ever done to advance the cause. It can be anything, e.g., you switched from being an economics major to something in the field of robotics; you asked someone if they ever heard of the concept of post scarcity or a gift economy; anything at all.

[Jossos]

OK, first of all Jossos, a reason why you've slightly hit a brick wall in this conversation so far has to do with some of the language that you used in your original post.

This is another thing that annoys me about you people. I'm trying to say something here and you pick apart my language. what the fcuk? I'm gonna skip over anything in which you critique the way i say things.

telling us that Doug is "obviously not intelligent" is about as useful as me telling you that "my neighbour is a jerk".

I know tzm is anal about credentials, but Douglass has none in relation to whatever he supposedly did with nasa. He's really twisting his affiliation with nasa to sell himself. I thought tzm would be more annoyed by that, but apparently not. Also a direct belief of Doug's that's completely bullshit is his idea of frankenfoods giving us cancer, and the scientists making GMO's deliberately inserting cancer into them. This is just not true, and should give people pause as to what's really running through this guys head. It matters because what his measure of what is "science" really isn't science.

I can report that some progress was made this year at the London event,

You really are deluding yourself. This year was the worst zday I think in the 5 years of doing this. I was in tzm, i attended irl meetings, and the zday's i went to seemed to have less and less people each year, and we just sorta said "what a success" and "spread positivity". I saw the London event, even with the tiny venue, the turnout was pathetic to say the least. Probably 50 people in the audience tops. I don't mean to harp on about it, but since you brought it up, I think it's important to face reality and understand that it's not a successful venture. THIS is what I mean about 'being real' not abundant resources or watever u start blabbing on about.

I thoroughly agree that we need to reach out to the scientific community, and we need your help with this, whether it means contacting people at your local university or preparing topical research for the Global Redesign Institute.

I'm glad you agree, and for the years I've been telling my local chapter this, they agreed aswell. Nothing happens of course, just agreement. Also I don't consider myself in the movement any more, so don't tell me to do your work.

I just have one question for you, Jossos: please mention at least one thing you have ever done to advance the cause.

I've done as much as you have.

[Neil]

I've done as much as you have.

I've talked to many friends and acquaintances in person, posted things in Facebook & other forums to spread awareness, and taken robotics courses. Are you saying you've done those kinds of things too? Please answer my question, mention at least one thing (specifically).

[Jossos]

I've talked to many friends and acquaintances in person, posted things in Facebook & other forums to spread awareness, and taken robotics courses. Are you saying you've done those kinds of things too? Please answer my question, mention at least one thing (specifically).

Oh wow. in that case I've done more than you. Nice work keyboard warrior