I have a better understanding of how I should feel and think about the test. I failed the test even though I received a score of 14/20. 70%. I'm a C student of TZM and TVM LOL.

All that aside, both sides have valid points. I do think that there is too much CONTROL.(hope I don't get tanked for this)
I agree however with Peter as far as conduct is concerned. But, even that is measured by whom? I think perception of negative conduct is a relative issue, which we can curb with our discourse. What I mean by this is, if anyone, including myself, Peter or any other moderators were to "step out of line" or say something that is questionable and deemed disrespectful, I think board members can and should be able to weigh in on such a thing, aiding the accused in understanding that he or she was out of line and their diatribe was an ad hominem, insult or disrespectful. Using logic and reason to point out the "short-coming." There is no need for banning, and castigation. Only for those OBVIOUS "cerebral insufficient(s)" that clearly oppose the movement. An example would be Members and Boarders of Prison Planet. There's no need to ostracize and victimize those who are followers, promoters of TZP, TZM and the RBE, who may not agree with a particular ideology or point. My perception of the RBE is that when or if someone does not "get the point" or falls short; he or she is rehabilitated. Not lynched and chastised. It's like what Jacques said in relation to the Religious people in an RBE. If they are to be suppressed, they would only go underground. The more effective thing to do is to get them to realize their mistakes and misconceptions. And the same measure should be meted out on this forum. We really need to "Practice what we preach", so to speak. Be what we are about. Instead of pontificating and being separatist - using cognitive dissonance as an aid, conveniently.

(Boy I hope I don't get banned for this.)

If the purpose of the test is to ensure that people read and have read Peter's work, to familiarize themselves with the purpose and agenda of TZM or TVP, great. But, again, Most of the people that join the forum are moved by either the Zeitgeist movie, or Jacques Fresco and want to know more and are exposed to a plethora of informations, when they join the forum. And most importantly join because they feel a part of something big. Something that they always knew was right, but couldn't express it for fear of being categorized as a loony or a dreamer. Let the test run its course, and watch the growth of membership. Maybe it'll increase maybe in won't.

Peter you and Jacques have influenced many and have moved thousands. Something to remember.

Have the test be a trivia quiz, and post a monthly "consensus."

It is very imperative to understand that the concept of an RBE and what TZM and TVP are about has crossed our minds continuously throughout our lives. However, we are zapped back to reality readily when we get a bill in the mail, or someone cheated us out on a used car we purchased etc., and the fundamentals of TVP and TZM are sometimes forgotten and slip the memory. Because the fundamentals - being the only answer to our issues, are continuously in contrast to our societal structures and what is. Sometimes I find myself posting things that are seemingly out of context, or the conclusion could be drawn that I didn't watch Z movie or read Peter's lectures etc, but it's not that; I just need to be refreshed. This happens to most of us and that's why we are here. I can depend on a fellow Boarder to point me back to what Peter said, or Jacques. I don't mind it. Someone may query this to be a form of indoctrination. Ehhhhh. I'll stop there.

*I'm not banned yet!*

Perhps if the questions were better it would be ok.

Questions less about fact recall and more about understanding.

Some of them didnt make sence to me like what is the lowest denominator of society..... but isnt the lowest denominator a mathmatical question?

michel5891 wrote:
Have the test be a trivia quiz, and post a monthly "consensus."

It is very imperative to understand that the concept of an RBE and what TZM and TVP are about has crossed our minds continuously throughout our lives. However, we are zapped back to reality readily when we get a bill in the mail, or someone cheated us out on a used car we purchased etc., and the fundamentals of TVP and TZM are sometimes forgotten and slip the memory. Because the fundamentals - being the only answer to our issues, are continuously in contrast to our societal structures and what is. Sometimes I find myself posting things that are seemingly out of context, or the conclusion could be drawn that I didn't watch Z movie or read Peter's lectures etc, but it's not that; I just need to be refreshed. This happens to most of us and that's why we are here. I can depend on a fellow Boarder to point me back to what Peter said, or Jacques. I don't mind it. Someone may query this to be a form of indoctrination. Ehhhhh. I'll stop there.

*I'm not banned yet!*

Frankly, that Peter or Jacque said something is not relevant because they said it. They can be as full of shit as anyone else. Anyone who says something relevant is equally important to the Movement, equal to Jacque or Peter or Roxanne or me or you or anyone else. We are not here to 'rubberstamp' anyone's words or social position in the Movement. This tendency to 'hero-worship' or 'elevate' people for some reason or another is a basic problem of our society. It is what makes good groups into cults and rigid hierarchies. That is not what anyone ever had in mind for this Movement. The Movement is a purely virtual group, it has no reality or any ability to change anyone or anything. There are no 'enforcers' in the wings to 'enforce' anyone's dictates. Moderators, which is what pops into many minds as they read this, are not 'enforcers'. Police are 'enforcers', and religiously fanatical goons in cult groups are 'enforcers', and 'private security guards' are enforcers, sometimes, but there are no 'enforcers' in this Movement. We exist ONLY to get out the survivable ideas presented here, to come to some agreement about those survivable ideas and to review and argue about Jacque and Peter's survivable ideas... nothing else. At this time, the Zeitgeist Movement is no more or less than any other imaginary, if proposed ideas, like the 'canon' of the Star Trek fans, who will argue bitterly about what kind of world is presented in the totally fictitious virtual reality of Star Trek.

If, at anytime, I think there are 'enforcers' in this Movement, the dust of my leaving will fill the air. Moderators are about a filtering process, filtering out those who come into our virtual space with the conscious or unconscious desire to crap on us, whatever their reason, and the idea that those people, moderators, having that responsibility makes them into 'enforcers' is really disconnected with reality. The Internet is huge, there are plenty of addresses of forums which those who want to crap on everyone can go, or they can easily start their own crapshoots. There are forums with no moderation at all, because the owners of those forums want a stone cold bar fight going on all the time. (especially political forums) Trolls do not have to come in here and crap on us. They are the equivalent of people who shit on the floors of supermarkets.

If anyone actually has an interest in the Movement, they are welcome, and agreeing or disagreeing is not a problem. Arguing any aspect of the Zm and TVP virtual observations and possibilities is fine. But, of course, personal attacks will not be tolerated, because that is not useful argument. To consider moderation to be 'nazi tactics' and 'totalitarian' methods only shows the mental distortion, mostly caused by subconscious fear, those people who say that are caught up in. The Zeitgeist now cannot have 'enforcers', so there can be nothing about the Movement now that is like the Nazis or be considered totalitarian. And nothing we propose for the future can lead to that kind of behavior, although to some, anything beneficial is considered a nasty con game to create those kinds of worlds. The world is having a Human created Mass Extinction Event and people are dying by the millions in horror and they are worried about a coherent set of ideas a few hundred thousand people like being a 'hoax' or 'scam'? Fear truly is the mindkiller.

Conceptual Perspective is a matter of scale and personal experience. If the only experiences you have of the world outside your sensorium is the normal crap on the news, you have no grounds for a perspective that includes the Zeitgeist Movement's vision and proposals. You cannot fit something so different than what you get on the news into your mind without a wide enough perspective. If you need to, go work in a 3rd world village, or help grow food on a farm or do something that widens your perspective. Without a perspective wider than what most people have, you are not even beginning to understand, can't understand no matter what words are used, the proposals of the Zeitgeist Movement. And that is with or without the 'test', publications, videos, or anything else.

I don't know if that was a rebuttal or you are in atonement with what I said, or just didn't get what I meant.

I didn't have to take the test because I registered before it was integrated but I took it anyway and got 19/20.

I don't see a fundemental problem with the test, maybe in time the way it is worded may change. For now though it is important to keep most trolls out. Saying it exludes people is just plain wrong. You can still be a member of the site, you can still read the forums and you can still join a chapter website and post on the forums there until you can pass the test. You can still call yourself a member of The Zeitgeist Movement.

I don't get why people watch Zeitgeist Addendum or even Zeitgeist and then want to start posting straight away on the forums. Those movies are not the movement as has been stated many times. The best way to learn about TZM and TVP is to look at all the reading and viewing materials that have been put out for free, not to start asking questions out of ignorance on the forums after watching one of the movies. For me personally the movies interested me so much that I wanted to learn more, it was probably the first time I actually got excited about learning something.

I think the best way to learn about anything is to first have a genuine interest in it and at least a basic agreement. I think if more people have a determination as many movement members do to watch every presentation/interview to do with TZM/TVP and to read all the materials they will have a full understanding of the movement's directions. As long as people continue to associate learning with boredom and drudgery we won't make much progress and the test will have to stay because some people refuse to review the materials put out there.

I think you're forgetting what it's like to be a newbie madz3000 hun, not just you actually, a few posting in this thread.
Many will have seen Addendum and heard the invite to join the movement at the end. They are probably in a kind of shock state still, having had their world turned upside down and will arrive with more impetous than patience. The first thing they'll want to do is communicate with like minded people, clear questions up in their heads, and they find a barrier. Doesn't matter how low that barrier is, it will still surprise them.
They aren't going to know we've had troll trouble, or people repeating questions over and over or understand how time consuming that is for the mods to have to keep answering. It's contact they need. I don't believe anyone will stop to read the whole forum through before wanting to post either, although will read a lot more than others. Not everyone has the same character.
Perhaps our capacity isn't yet such as to be able to have a beginners area, however as the present members grow in understanding, we should never forget how it was when we ourselves first arrived and I do feel we could eventually incorporate a newbies area. Sorry Peter, I know you said you think it would be wasteful, but wasteful is also this habit people have of quoting whole posts, videos included and taking up space just to answer a small part of a post, and that's not half as useful as time spent helping new people find their way and grow with us.
Please, please, please, let's all try and walk a mile in the shoes of the newbies, let's give them a different impression when they arrive. If there must be a test, perhaps it could be if they start posting irrelevant stuff. I really feel that a test as soon as one enters for the first time shows almost a "guilty before proven innocent" line of thought.

ZG Hugs

Agreed, Vixi. I don't know any other forum that requires a test before joining. I think it'll turn a lot of people off. Not only that, but I think it's healthy for people to learn through two-way discussion rather than reading/watching hours upon hours of material - for both the newbie and the veteran boarders. We shouldn't feel like we have all the answers already and that people just need to read the material and they will understand and agree with our point of view. I don't think anyone can be that sure about the distant future.

domokato wrote:
I don't know any other forum that requires a test before joining.This is not like any other forum.

I think it'll turn a lot of people off.If they're that hypersensitive, then they're probably not ready...yet.

Not only that, but I think it's healthy for people to learn through two-way discussion rather than reading/watching hours upon hours of material - for both the newbie and the veteran boarders.Two-way discussion IS available - for free. Teamspeak and IRC don't require a test to get in and communicate directly with other members. Neither do any of the 350+ Chapter websites/forums.

We shouldn't feel like we have all the answers already We don't and have never made such a claim.

and that people just need to read the material and they will understand and agree with our point of view.Perhaps they need to re-read the material until they do understand - it's not rocket science! Also, as Peter has made this crystal clear, the test is NOT about agreement.

I don't think anyone can be that sure about the distant future.Again, no one here has ever or will ever make that claim.

"Perhaps they need to re-read the material until they do understand - it's not rocket science!"
It's not rocket science, nope, for many it's just absolutely mindblowing, earthshaking, totally disconcerting knowledge that's all.
We are completely ignoring the importance of the human contact factor here. Telling people to "go away, read up, do your homework" is not an incentive to get people to keep interested in the movement. Please understand I'm not talking about molly coddling folk here, I'm talking about understanding the mind frame of what I suspect will be the majority of newbies here. Is there one single one of us that hasn't needed an explanation of some kind since we started posting in the forum, or joined the movement? Is there one single one of us that hasn't benefitted from the patience that someone has had to explain a query or worry to them? Is there one single one of us that hasn't asked a question of a more understanding member and been shown they needed a different view point and therefore grown in understanding? We are encouraged to ask by the statement "The only dumb questions are the ones that aren't asked".
Does no one consider that once they are IN the forum and really begin to feel a part of it all, we all enjoy watching the new videos and reading the new info by our own motivation?
This is getting to be more and more like Mom and Dad saying "Go away and do your homework, I'm too busy/ have more important things to do than to talk to you right now."