domokato wrote:
But it sounds like you're trying to squash dissenting voices by saying this forum is for members only. One of the movements' tenets is openness and transparency, am I right? In my mind, that includes debate about the ideology of the movement itself. I just think it would add to the movement's legitimacy to be open to debate.

Actually, it is open to debate, and it is being debated constantly. The test has little effect on the Forum yet, since most of the people have been on it for some time, long before the test. I don't like the test either, and I am debating it's usefulness and social effect. I think it's using a cannon to kill a flea, and gives the ZM a cult-like appearance to those who don't know us. I'm sure that debate will go on. But it will not divide us, because the ideas are too important to let small matters do that. If, for even an instant, someone realizes how important the ZM actually is, what is really at stake, nothing will cut through that realization and the unity inherent in it.

But mostly I'm busy deconstructing the arguments of the movement and attempting to get clarification, which unfortunately, I haven't been able to get. I guess I'll wait for the third movie.

So ask me your questions and give me your ideas. I'll do my best to answer you. I've been in the 'Movement' for many decades, long before it became the 'Zeitgeist' Movement. In fact, I was delighted to know that what I had been waiting for all those years was now happening. I thought of it in terms of a 'Design Science Revolution' but this is slightly different than that, for good reason. I appreciate those differences. They actually make it more comprehensive.

I have been making relevant threads. I made threads about the philosophy of science, cognitive biases, critical thinking, and logical argumentation, among other things. Surely those subjects have value?

Sometimes they might, but I haven't read them. Give me some links to your posts and I'll give you my responses.

What is relevant for me first is an in-depth understanding of the movement. If I can't get that (due to lack of coherent arguments and supporting evidence), I can't in good conscience offer anything to the movement. I think I've read more material than you think I have. Just because I said one time that I haven't read everything, don't assume that I've read nothing. Just because I ask questions doesn't mean I haven't thought deeply about the topic at hand. I'm just trying to find the underlying reasoning behind the movement's ideology and I'm coming up empty a lot of the time.

So you want my reasoning behind the movement? There is little 'supporting evidence'... it is too new for much of that.


Well, what I'm really saying is I can support an RBE if the transition is gradual, legal, and not subversive. The ends do not justify the means. You can't just look at the ends. The means are important as well, if not more important. That's all I'm saying. I'm not implying your transition plan is subversive, but I've seen a lot of subversive ideas presented on these forums.

Of course, because many members are very new to all these ideas, and some are coming from different directions, which bias their understanding. Nothing can change that but time and communication. But one basic rule will exist if the Zeitgeist Movement is to have any good effect on the world... 'Only a good means can create a good end.' Which means that the speed of the Transition will be the speed it takes for it to happen, regardless of what anyone would like, and we will not use violence, period. 'Legality' is not up to us, it is up to the 'powers-that-be', who may or may not declare us illegal... but that won't stop the overall Movement, because it is a lot larger than just the Zeitgeist Movement. And any such laws will be swiftly repealed, I think. But either way, the progress of the goal of social sanity cannot be stopped, because it opposes nobody. We are not a 'struggle' against someone... we are a set of ideas which will not go away, and which nature itself is powering. I say that because Humanity has created a Mass Extinction Event which will force us to change the way we think and act or eventually go extinct. That is the roots of the Zeitgeist Movement, not some 'ideology'.

However, given the pending ecological and economic collapses which are occurring and growing, there is a developing instability that could reorient the public towards a new, sustainable social system.
Agreed, but I'm highly doubtful something as radical as an RBE will take root anytime soon.

So no disagreement there. It will happen when the conditions are right for it to happen. That's just the way natural processes work. That's what has created this Zeitgeist Movement, which I was told was 'impossible' about a million times over decades of discussion on and off the net. Yet, here we are, all of us working together to at least educate the people so it can become a major idea whose time has come...

I took the test and managed 15 out of 20. It didn’t even tell me what I got wrong. Here are three points I would like to share… (I know it’s a bit wordy but please tell me what you think.)

1. How rude of you to ask me to do a test, like I am not good enough for the movement. A movement that realistically has achieved relatively little. Arguably we need to include as many people as we can and build up our resources, because as it stands we don’t have that much. This is a stupid let alone crazy idea to have this test. If this test had been in place when I joined, I would not have joined! Depriving the movement of another body, my experiences, my insight, my resources and support. And if I feel that way others must too, how many have we lost?

2. What a ridiculously bad idea. Isn’t this completely against everything we said? I thought we were about inclusion and openness. Some of the questions are based on your knowledge of the academic studies, so in a Zeitgeist future only the intellectuals will be allowed to talk? We all join up, but then the society changes and the average person is pushed out. What a frightening thought. If you actually ran a society the way you run this movement, where normal don’t get a vote or say about what happens, that’s a society I wouldn’t want to be trapped in.

3. You can only pass if I completely agree with everything the organizers of the movement say. What if I have other ideas that may be better? I don’t pass and am not welcome if I don’t agree with everything?

I think this is totally against what I thought we were about. Who thought this up should be kicked!

Fox.. I think Peter thought of this one. The reason the test was put in was because of 2 reasons:

1) To stop new members from cluttering the forum up with redundant questions whose answers can be found in FAQ, knowledge base, and orientation guide.

2) To discourage trolls from trolling. Trying to make a sock puppet account for the sake of trolling will be too much effort.

The test is somewhat easy, but that doesn't mean that you'll be able to get 20/20. I still say that the pass mark be reduced to 15 or 14.

I got 15/20. Some of the questions were thought provoking, but others were totally awful - like our current educational system. It is ironic to advocate a new way of education while at the same time making tests which require fact memorization.

If the questions are kept simple and address the general direction of the movement, then I'm all for it. That would be a motivation for newcomers to learn (maybe). But now it is more like a test that came from the average school.

I think it is best to open a thread where everybody can propose a question and then we can pick the best ones.

lizardman wrote:
I got 15/20. Some of the questions were thought provoking, but others were totally awful - like our current educational system. It is ironic to advocate a new way of education while at the same time making tests which require fact memorization.

If the questions are kept simple and address the general direction of the movement, then I'm all for it. That would be a motivation for newcomers to learn (maybe). But now it is more like a test that came from the average school.

I think it is best to open a thread where everybody can propose a question and then we can pick the best ones.

I can agree with that .. I sure don't have a good memory at my age..I am lucky to remember my birthday .. Remembering facts and having understanding are such different things.

I agree with having a test. It has to be changed and people need to be reminded of one of the fundamental principles in the the zeigeist movement, constant change is the only thing that promotes fairness, and changing the status quo is the very reason that zeitgeist exists. So I don't see why there would be any resistance by the moderator to change it. It does have to be changed, to reflect it's intention. Right now the effect that they are producing with it is more elitism. Sure it's not government or corporate elitism. But that can't exist without the notion that elitism is sometimes ok.

I also just realized how remiss I was yesterday. All I did was respond to the one negative post, and completely forgot to acknowledge that everyone, (but thunder,) was very supportive and positive. Thank you for your great posts, and please accept my sincere appologies for not acknowledging that when I should have.

duram wrote:
I agree with having a test. It has to be changed and people need to be reminded of one of the fundamental principles in the the zeigeist movement, constant change is the only thing that promotes fairness, and changing the status quo is the very reason that zeitgeist exists. So I don't see why there would be any resistance by the moderator to change it. It does have to be changed, to reflect it's intention. Right now the effect that they are producing with it is more elitism. Sure it's not government or corporate elitism. But that can't exist without the notion that elitism is sometimes ok.

I also just realized how remiss I was yesterday. All I did was respond to the one negative post, and completely forgot to acknowledge that everyone, (but thunder,) was very supportive and positive. Thank you for your great posts, and please accept my sincere appologies for not acknowledging that when I should have.

You did take too much offence with Thunder, Duram, he's a good guy..typed words can easily take on the wrong meaning...I like to try and be like my Avatar..laid back and not easily offended.

We are all here with the same desire to make this a better world.

Exellent but with my first try I got 18/20 and now I want to know were I fail, so there are some full list of questions and answers?

Big hug
Nelson

Peter, first of all I am a big fan, and support you with all my might, even though that's not what you want, "....greatness thrust upon them"
You DID say "is it corrution? NO." (I'm Paraphrasing now) it's not corrupt to do what the money system is intended to do. Although your intentions are sound the test DOES have to be changed to reflect not only the intentions of the test but to reflect the truth that only through constant change will we be able to have an equitable society. Sure you can in hindsight explain what you meant when you said that it isn't corrupt, but that doesn't change the fact that it was confusing and it would better if you would make it not confusing. You don't have to have four right answers with one being more right. this isn't the S.A.T.'s. If you told me what I was mistaken about I would have been able to do the hmoework needed instead of just answering what I thought was right over and over again. When you change the test each time, I can't tell if I'm improving or not, and I didn't know for a long time, and still don't know where I went wrong. You see there is a lot of information on the zeitgeist movement so when the people from zeigeist say something, you would think that you can guess he/she has done their homework on their own movement so maybe I can trust the info. That's why you feel justified in belittling my stance, by telling me how simple it is to just do my homework. I thought I already had. What I noticed, Peter, is that you didn't inquire to what I was refering when I said the test had to be changed, you were just certain that it didn't. You forgot that I am not like you. Open book test or not you would have to memorize the info that is provided to a significant extent to be able know wich of the right answers to chose and to know the explaination that you provided on what you said about the corruption. A good start would be to at least let people know what they got wrong so they can expand their knowledge rather than having to just guess if they rectified a mistake or not, because like I said even though I passed the test I still don't know where I went wrong.

So basicly zeitgiest excludes those that either dont believe exactly what Peter does or are not academics of all his litrature?

Isnt that what this test is?